PLANNING COMMISSION/ZONING COMMISSON
OLD LYME FIRE DEPARTMENT/INLAND WETLANDS COMMISSION
MARCH 19, 2008
PRESENT WERE: Harold Thompson, Chris Kerr, Robert McCarthy, Robert Pierson, Connie Kastelowitz, Nancy Strohla, Janet Bechtel, Don Willis, Evan Griswold, Robert Doane, Joe Wren, Ann Brown and Kim Groves.
DISCUSSION OF PERTINENT ISSUES FOR AND AGAINST THE INSTALLATION OF BOTH FIRE WELL (PONDS) AND STORAGE TANKS
Thompson stated the reason the Planning Commission requested this meeting was because in the past the commission has had discussions with the Fire Department regarding to their needs, wants and desires with respect to fire wells and fire ponds. He noted that as a result of those discussions, questions have been raised about the seasonal availability of water in certain fire ponds. He stated that at a previous meeting, (held a year or so ago), the Fire Department provided a list of all of the ponds in town, including some historical information about them, and which ones served as viable sources of water during the summer.
Thompson went on to explain that certain developments in town have now installed water storage tanks. He stated the tanks are a measurable, reliable source of water, but once the water is used it needs to be replenished by the Fire Department, which places an additional burden on our volunteer organization. He also noted the town does not currently have a mechanism to address the future replacements of these tanks. He stated it was his understanding that the life expectancy of a concrete storage tank is about twenty years and once that tank starts to deteriorate it no longer a viable water source and the town stands to incur additional costs associated with their replacement. Thompson asked if this cost should be absorbed by the developer, the town or the community/association it serves.
Bechtel stated this subject has come up a number of times and that the Inland Wetland and Watercourses Commission tries very hard to look at every wetland application on an individual basis, as opposed to blanket standards for fire suppression. She stated the commission finds some situations where a fire pond makes all the sense in the world, however, there are other situations where there isn’t sufficient water and they have felt a tank would make the most sense. Bechtel further stated that in the case of subdivisions, if a developer wants to come into the Town of Old Lyme and develop property that indeed is his right, as long as he complies with all of the regulations. However, she does not think it is the responsibility of the town to lighten the financial burden of developing a piece of property and
if fire suppression is required but not readily available, then the best solutions seems to put in an underground storage tank. Bechtel stated she has always thought of the storage tanks in terms of fiberglass versus concrete). Bechtel discussed recent projects before the commission:
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Four Ponds: commission members felt there was sufficient water on that piece of property and approved a fire pond.
1 Huntley Road – The Inland/Wetlands Commission did not know that fire suppression was an issue. This property is located at the corner of Halls Road and Huntley Road. She stated the applicant has now been requested to put a standpipe into Davis Pond. Bechtel questioned the water availability at David Pond this summer and noted the pond at Cross Lane was dry this summer.
Bechtel stated she felt developers were in the position of bearing the infrastructure costs, not the town, and she found fire tanks to be perfectly viable. She further stated they can go under a roadway, they are readily accessible and they could be refilled by a pool company, thus placing the burden of the time and money to refill them on the property owners that choose to buy in that development not the Fire Department.
Bechtel stated she felt the commissions needed to look at the concerns of the Fire Department, and how much water was needed to put out a house fire. However, where do we realistically get that water; we cannot get it from every little stream and we definitely cannot be sucking it from every wetland that is in town. Therefore, she thinks we are looking at some of the larger ponds, rivers and lakes.
Thompson asked Ann Brown why the developer used concrete tanks vs. fiberglass at the Lords Woods subdivision. Brown stated that she believed that the Fire Marshall got involved with the tank design but she was not sure. She further noted she has not written a permit for it because she was never given a plan that was approved by the Fire Marshall.
Robert McCarthy stated the original design was fiberglass but they went to concrete because of the 30,000 gallon tank. He stated to get a 30,000 gallon fiberglass tank through that road to that location would be extremely difficult. He further noted that prior to the installation of the concrete tank, the applicant went to the Fire Department to get approval for the changing out to concrete. He stated the developer used either two or three separate tanks and piped them together at the bottom and the concern was that they were sealed and would have a similar life as the fiberglass tank. He also noted that the company that provided the tank gave them an assurance that the tanks would have a life equal to the fiberglass tank.
Kastelowitz asked what the cost difference was between the two tanks. Joe Wren, Engineer for the 1 Huntley Rd. application, stated that fiberglass tanks are more expensive, however once you reach the 30,000 gallon and larger level then the costs become equal. He stated once you get into 40,000 and 50,000 gallon tanks the concrete tanks become more expensive. He stated as far as installation of a concrete tank you can make a nice level whole in the ground and make a base and set the tank on it, but, with the fiberglass tank you have to make sure that the groundwater does not come up and float the tank out of the ground so there has to be a pretty involved system which holds the tank down into the ground, therefore the construction cost is much higher.
Don Willis asked who would be responsible for maintaining them, inspecting them, making sure they were not leaking, and that there was water in them. Willis stated he felt all of these responsibilities would come back to the town. He further noted that although homeowners associations are initially set up, down the road they fall apart and the town is left responsible for all of the improvements; tanks, roads and drainage systems. He stated he was not in favor of something that needs replacement in thirty years. He would rather install a standpipe or mechanism that would work for that particular site.
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Evan Griswold stated he would assume that who ever is served by a fire tank and their insurance companies would make sure that the tank is maintained. McCarthy stated whether there was an association or not, most of the roads become infrastructure and once they are turned over to the town, the town maintains the road, including the storm water drainage systems. Willis also noted the town would be responsible for paying for the inspections of fire tanks every two years. McCarthy also stated the other big factor is the liability to the town. Griswold stated that although cost to the town of having a fire pond is relatively free, there is a long-term ecological cost which the economic system is not going to bear. He stated somebody downstream pays the cost. Griswold stated the job of the wetlands
commission is to protect the wetlands. Willis stated the commission needs to be practical and fair. He stated if there is a fire and the Fire Department needs water they will stick a hose anywhere. McCarthy pointed out to the members that when there is controversy about putting a fire well into a stream or pond, the reality is that the Fire Department will go where it needs to go to get water. And in the case of Lord’s Woods specifically, that means the other side of the pond. They will just drop suction into the water and it is going to suck the same water from a different part of the embankment. Griswold stated sucking water out of a pond for a fire is different than putting in a fire well where there is going to be an effect on the wetlands that will be there for hundreds of years. Pierson stated there would be less effect on the wetlands from a fire well than throwing a line into the water and firemen walking through the
wetlands and he felt there would be less impact with controlled conditions such as a standpipe.
Bechtel stated that on the Lords Woods subdivision the standpipe was proposed in a shallow stream crossing. She stated she could understand driving around to the other side of the pond to get the water draw. And reiterated that she did not believe sufficient water could be obtained from the original standpipe location. McCarthy stated the point is, it is the same water and the Fire Department is going to go to the nearest water source and throw a suction hose in and get the water. Bechtel stated there is a big difference between going to a stream that you cannot get your ankles wet in and dropping a hose into Rogers Lake.
Pierson stated he did not feel the Fire Department would approve a plan if they did not feel there was an adequate water supply. Pierson stated the Fire Department has worked to get the town’s ISO rating (Insurance Services Organization) down to a six (6) and for the residents in town that is a half million dollar a year savings in insurance premiums. He further stated that if we start messing up with water supplies to a development or allow development in town to go beyond the available water supply the ISO will raise the rating for the entire town.
Thompson asked if there were some criteria that could be established for development that comes within a certain distance of a viable water source and if a standpipe would be the preferred method. He stated maybe we could come to an agreement on what type of water source would constitute adequate support for a fire well versus a tank. Griswold asked if Thompson was talking about a standpipe which is a permanent structure from a pond; Thompson indicated that was correct. Griswold reiterated that we were discussing a standpipe, not a fire well where every year or two the Fire Departments needs to dig it out to make sure it is deep enough to maintain a fire well. Griswold stated his concern is sedimentation and erosion problems from putting trucks and machinery into wetlands. Pierson stated there are
approximately 95 fire wells in town and asked if there was any historical data of damage being done. Bechtel stated that what the Fire Department sees as their need is not necessarily environmentally healthy for the wetlands. Pierson stated that is what he is asking; is there any historical data that the wetlands have been damaged by the Fire Department. Griswold stated he does not think this has been reviewed in a way that anybody has any data on whether the wetlands have been damaged.
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Bechtel stated that equipment is brought in to hog out a fire well, digging can create sedimentation, and the removal of the existing plant growth can cause erosion and that is damage. Bechtel asked if there could be a compromise; standpipes where there are large bodies of water that can be drawn from, fire tanks when all that is available are small, shallow wetlands. When such a situation exists then maybe the town does take on the liability of a fire tank and Bechtel suggested a bonding escrow account, or some sort of mechanism that keeps pace with he current demands on the infrastructure.
Kerr asked the Fire Department if they could tell the commissions how far they want to be from a fire pond or fire well. He noted the town has just acquired a new truck that has 2,500 ft. McCarthy stated there are developments that are absolutely fine and need no further suppression. McCarthy stated that the corner of Halls Road and Route 156 is a very long distance to any real water source. McCarthy further stated he has not reviewed these specific plans and therefore was not prepared to comment with regard to this particular application (1 Huntley Rd). Pierson noted getting a truck into the Old Lyme Marina is very difficult and during the winter it is just not accessible with all of the boat storage.
Bechtel asked what the Old Lyme Marketplace uses for fire protection. McCarthy stated they have their own system on site. Willis asked if it could be tapped into. McCarthy stated it is a private system designed for the shopping center and was not really an option to neighboring properties.
Bechtel stated there are two water sources near the corner of Huntley and Halls Road (specific project in question) and does anyone know if either of these sources would work for this project. Pierson stated there is an issue with saltwater; it can be used, but as soon as the Fire Department uses it then any truck that is involved in the situation has to go to Rogers Lake and pump fresh water into the trucks to clean them out. Therefore, Pierson stated he felt Davis Pond had enough water in it for protection and further noted that pond was dug out for its gravel when the turnpike went in. Bechtel stated she felt Davis Pond was a very boggy body of water. Wren, applicant for Huntley & Halls, stated he was originally told that no water source would be required for the site. He stated once
he received approval from the Wetlands Commission and then went to the Zoning Commission he was then told some time of system needed to be designed that would allow water to be sucked directly from Davis Pond. He said he then received conflicting information from the Fire Marshall and the Fire Chief as to what would work in that pond. He stated he has now received a design from the Fire Chief, which he presented. He stated this proposal would need a massive excavation to install, therefore if either of the water sources near the site would work it might be a better option. Pierson stated the Fire Department is after the initial 30,000 gallons to maintain the insurance rating. He further stated other towns have lost this rating because of not having the proper water supplies for their developments in town. Willis asked if we could meet the ISO with the Lieutenant River, if it is the adequate distance.
Thompson stated at a previous meeting the Fire Department presented a list of the entire wells and locations and suggested we revisit that list and look at the water availability seasonally.
Pierson stated with regard to the Pedersen property that pond was a little further away then what is required, but the Fire Department felt that they would be willing to sacrifice having to use tanker trucks because that would be providing more fire protection for people that we don’t currently have it for up on that end of Bill Hill Road.
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Griswold asked if any town in Connecticut has turned down a development for inadequate fire protection. No one had any information with regard to that. Thompson stated with the option of putting in a fire tank he did not think that was feasible.
Doane asked Griswold if he had a problem with digging ponds on uplands adjacent to the wetlands to take advantage of the aquifer.
Diana Atwood Johnson stated that the Subdivision Regulations prohibit any excavation in open space. She stated that typically open space receives a lot of wetlands therefore we would not want a pond to be excavated in the open space.
Thompson summarized some of the criteria discussed:
1. that if the body of water is tidal wetlands, then a standpipe cannot be used effectively
2. that if the body of water is a pond a standpipe would be very effective
Therefore, if there is an adequate pond available to the Fire Department near the Pederson property than a standpipe in that pond would be an appropriate application. There was a general murmur of assent.
Thompson stated as far as Huntley & Halls project is concerned it seemed that if the Fire Department could reach the water source of the Lieutenant River that would be the solution as opposed to a fire well in Davis Pond. There was a general murmur of assent.
Thompson stated he would ask the Fire Department to provide information for the next meeting. Pierson stated he thought there were approximately 90 fire wells in town. Bechtel asked how many of those wells were viable this summer. Pierson stated he never researched this information. Griswold also noted that the Town of Old Lyme is fortunate because they do have a high water table. Bechtel noted that Cross Lane was dry this summer and she felt this was one of the bigger ponds in town. Bechtel asked if the ISO has been re-evaluated in the last fifteen years. Bechtel asked that if the 90 fire wells in town are still as viable as they were fifteen years ago. Pierson stated the ninety wells were not used to establish that rating. McCarthy stated the ISO rating is not just
based on water supply, but also included equipment, fire house locations and other factors. He further stated they do request updated information on a regular basis.
Bechtel asked if there was a practical way to streamline the process for the applicants. Discussion ensued. Thompson asked if the commissions could get a letter from the Fire Department indicating the water requirements for both residential and commercial. McCarthy stated it is really done on a case by case basis. Thompson also asked for clarification of jurisdiction between the Fire Chief and Fire Marshall. Pierson stated he would be in contact with the Fire Chief to discuss the issues and concerns raised at this meeting.
Respectfully submitted,
Kim Groves
Land Use Administrator
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